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posted on 2003-11-7 at 01:53
Music as an art
I was just wondering what people thought about music, in an art vs. entertainment perspective. Does anybody here look for something in the music they
listen to besides the obvious radio appeal? It just seems to me that there is very little music out there that isn't designed exclusively to
entertain the most people as quickly as possible to make some cash*. Am I wrong about this? Anyone have any ideas?
(*yes, I know there are exceptions to this, like for example any band containing Maynard, and the new Silverchair... and many others whom time
prevents my mentionning.)
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little_lady
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 02:54
I personally feel that any type of music...except
-Britney Spears
-Hilary Duff
-Avril Lavigne
-Enrique Iglesias
-ANY BOYBAND....(except N*Sync, I have my reasons dammit)
has some art in it.
When I look for songs to listen to..I don't care if it's something that could be played on the radio or not...I always, ALWAYS look at the
lyrics first, and most of the time get lost in them, as if it were some sort of story..the music just adds to the mood and creates a different
environment..
I'm a very artistic person with a hell of an abstract mind...so not everyone might feel the same way..
you won't let me down...
shiftyroach
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 02:58
Depends on the type of music. Usually I gotta be able to groove to it, but as an art form it's hard to explain. Take Jazz for an example, you
don't always have accompanying lyrics, but to be able to improvise a solo on the sax or trumpet onstage, that's an art.
The creative process itself is always an art form. For most people it's really easy to tell if it's a labour of love for the art, or just
labour to cash in on what's "hip" today.
I went off on a couple of tangents, but I hope you can see where I'm trying to go with this.
can I find my faults // leave them and start // to find myself?
RobH
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 03:27
I Understand what you are saying. As far as the creative process goes, to me it seems as though it is being washed away to the easier and more
profitable "formula" writing. I mean... name 5 songs that don't go Verse Chorus Verse Chorus Bridge Chorus... or something very
similar to that that get any radioplay.
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shiftyroach
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 03:38
Was trying to prove you wrong (in a good way saying there's hope for music) and checking the ChumFM top 30. Holy crap, you were right, I
don't think a single one of them strays from the formula.
can I find my faults // leave them and start // to find myself?
RobH
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 03:43
There is hope for music. I am not so pessimistic as to think that music cannot succeed as an art... but it's not doing a terribly good job of it
right now...
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little_lady
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 04:01
Of course there is hope for music!
We just need to change the artists with "radioplay" to REAL artists with real talent that most of the time goes unoticed.
you won't let me down...
SideO_JR
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 04:55
what is so wrong about the "formula" tho. I don't know too much about music but almost all of the songs i listen to do go like
that. I still like them and there are also other songs that don't. actually i kinda know what u mean...you know what.....forget it
mi
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 05:26
music is an art.... and the ones who create music are true artists. it takes a lot of effort to put together songs, even the simplist of songs are
difficult to coordinate... someone can write an amazing sounding song from a simple chord progression, or with the formula, or someone can write a
good song with complex rhythms, and forms. What is truely amazing is the meaning and emotions poured into each song by an artist, and the amount of
energy and passion they put into performing their songs.
To answer the original question, when i listen to songs i listen for the bass line, i also like to listen to the sound of the vocalists voice too (the
sound of their voice must match the music style)... and i listen for the ability for all of the parts to piece together.... each part of the song has
to compliment the other parts...
the act of sacraficing bitter memories
i cant bring myself to fogive you, i cant force myself to fogive you, i cant bring myself to forgive you
Reivax
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 07:04
I higly enjoy this topic. I find it quite amazing that an independent band from mississauga can have such an amazing Bulletin Board. Any other BB that
I have seen, by a big famous band, is full of morons and dumbass topics. Great topics and posts people...
Anyway, that said, I can get on with the topic. It's funny that you posted this, because I was thinking today how all popular music follows some
sort of formula to grab people. Like there a few select people out there that learned exactly how to write a catchy tune,no matter what genre of music
it is. They just fucking know something that other people don't. I believe Chris Shembri has the talent.
I think everyone can admit that they understand why no.1 songs are no.1, even if they loathe the songs. They are so god damn catchy. I have always
been the type that hasn't been afraid to admit that Hanson are a damn good band, but I certainly would never buy their music, 'cause I
don't like it. Same goes with any boy band, rap artist etc...Since most people can't admit this like me, I think they just get
angry....that's one of the reasons why people always got so mad at boy bands when they were really popular. (forgive me, I'm tired. I know
this makes little sense).
There are alot of people out there, including me sometimes, that complain about how uninspired radio music is nowadays and how it should change. Then
why the hell are you listening to it? There is sooooo much untouched music out there just waiting to be heard. But people would rather not look, they
would rather just flip on the FM. Radio music will never change, you know? It has to be the way it is for the stations to survive. That's why
movies like Freddy got fingered are going to make way more money than movies like, say, memento.
What I personally look for in a song? Since I don't really listen to lyrics unless they are really audible, I listen for this overall feel or
vibe. Something that, as a whole, works so damn well together. I like original sounding stuff, I really appreciate anything that sounds
untraditional..and catchy at the same time. Kinda like what billy talent is doing. Try honesty is such a weird song. Of course, tool fits into that
category quite nicely. I also listen to a hell of alot of instrumental music like Joe satriani...who I think is the greatest artist of all time..he
sums up everything that I like about music. Classical music is great, but I think most people can't really listen to that without getting really
bored.
When I write music, I like to write music that I can fall asleep to. Music thatis so mellow that you can just close your eyes and relax and feel good.
I know that I am the biggest fan of my stuff and that's never going to change, but I like that I write stuff for myself and not others..but I
still hope others will like it.
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 12:51
Reivax
You could very well be one of the most interesting people on this site.
Most of the music that I actually listen to is classical, so I understand what you're saying about people finding it
'boring'...it's all about sophistication in my opinion...
I personally cannot stand most rock music...I told Adam this on Friday..yet somehow I enjoy them...I just recognize their amazing talent I guess.
Dez
you won't let me down...
Sin Ogaris
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 15:18
Yeah, music is an art, whether people like to believe it or not ALL music is an art (yes, even techno). The thing is, as with all art, there's
varying degrees of quality, and also people who use others work to make a buck.
For example, I don't believe that the likes of Britney Spears and all the rest (can't be stuffed putting in lots of names) of those Pop
sensations are actually artists, if you don't write the music you aren't creating the art. Whoever originally wrote it can be considered
the artist and the performers are just that, performers.
This actually also comes down to why I despise these bands/soloists so fricking much, they're taking the art out of the music by pushing the
composers into the shadows, I mean seriously anyone can play another persons song, all you have to do is repeat what you hear. But when you write your
own stuff you feel good about it (I'm sure all the people here who make music will agree), it doesn't matter how good, or bad, what you
wrote is, the fact is, it came from you, it's YOUR emotions brought through.
Same with anything arty, whether it's a painting, a dance routine or a song, it's you expressing yourself, if you go and recreate what
someone else has drawn or performed then you're just expressing their views and not your own, and really people who do that are just cheating
themselves.
Although, that's not to say that it can't also be a good thing, if you enjoy the music so much and really feel for the band then every
time you perform it, it's like you're paying homage to the original writer and through that you can feel the emotions of the piece, and
enjoy it even more (I know I do, every time I learn a song by a great band or artist it makes me enjoy the song that little bit more).
Nothing can match the feeling you get when you write your own stuff though. Doesn't matter if it's a riff or a 5 minute solo, the fact
that it's yours and you're sharing it with the World is something that's greater than any amount of covers you may perform.
Anyway, I kinda rambled a bit there, and what it all boils down to is that while all music is an art, it doesn't make all musicians artists,
which is what turns me off a lot of the radio stuff (I never listen to the radio, best thing that happened to me was getting a cd player for my car so
I'd never have to hear the radio again).
As to what I listen to in a song, well, everything. I listen to the vocals, the guitar, the bass, the "scratches", everything.
Doesn't matter if ay particular item is missing either, when you have a collection of instruments performing they're all there for a
reason, so it's pointless to exclude anything.
Oh, and with the whole formula thing, it's the old rule "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Though it is nice to hear a
song that deviates from this stale formula (Live to Imitate comes to mind as a song that is different to the norm but still sounds cool).
1lilrockerchic
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 18:29
Ok well when people are talking to each other about a song and they cant remember who its by they always seem to ask "who's the
artist?" but i can agree with Britney Spears isnt really an artist because she is perfoming the song, which was written by some one else.
but there are many talented people out there in the music industry that i consider to be artists. like many jazz writers are so talented it blows my
mind away as well as classical music. I have great respect for Bach, Mozart etc. all great writers, and truly artists of all time.
The music i look for well is what ever suits my mood like for a while this week ive been listening to the Titanic soundtrack as well as the broadway
verison of The Lion King. i always listen to the lyrics and i listen to see if the performer/artist is in key or how they perform in general.
.::Lullaby::.
xX*I am sorry now (but will I ever let you go…)
Things seem so wrong (I had something worth living for)
I cant go on, but its something we’re suppose to do
My heart is crushed, now that I’m without you
I’m without you *Xx
Reivax
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Sin, you brought up a point that I think about alot. The fact that most mainstream music isn't even written by the known artist. This used to
anger me alot when I was younger, I remember I always looking at the bottom of music videos to see who the composers were and maybe 10 percent of the
music was even written by the so called artists. It even got to the point where I would be impressed by anything that was actually written by the
people on the TV screen. That's a bit ridiculous. It's a pretty good hunk of proof that mainstream music is only created to make make
money off our easily brainwashed minds.
Like you said there is no better feeling than writing your own songs. Creating, expanding your abilities. Prooving to yourself what you're
capable of. Too bad talent doesn't really sell in the music industry.
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 22:59
Wow, some awesome ideas there guys. Nothing that I don't agree with, really. When it comes down to it though, the reason you will not hear a lot
of very creative, original and unique music on the radio, is because we don't want to hear it. And I don't mean anyone in specific, but
the average person isn't interested in hearing something new. If there was interest in new styles and forms of music, then there would be money
in it, and then it would be on the radio. Plain and simple.
www.sluggy.com
Xlivid
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 23:25
Who is to say that people that only perform songs and don't write them are not artists??/
Think about it. some of the greatest performers that western society has ever known has been people that do not write songs but rather perform them. I
think that it has become pop culture to bash the performer when really its an art in itself. Look at Elvis.... does anybody consider him not an
artist??? what about Frank Sanatra??? they didn't write there own songs but they are still artists....
Interpretation is artistic. I don't like BSB or NSYNC or Britney spears but i got to hand it to them. They deliver a product that pleases many
people. Why is it that we can't accept that there are people that write a great mother fucking Pop song and then there are others that are
Killer performers to actually sing the song??? To me it is a matter of seeing the strengths and weaknesses in people and taking advantage.
What about Ballet??? the dancers who perform ballet did not coreographe the dance yet they are considers astists in their own right. But here is an
even better argument.
Lets make up a band. Lets call them "Sweet". There are four members in the band called sweet but there is one key writer... That guy/girl
writes the best songs in the world. So he/she is always the one who writes the original vocal and guitar line. Then another member in the band is
really good at figuring out the way the songs should arranged. That second guy didn't write the song but he is going what he is good at. Then
there is this other guy who is a fucking good signer. So he always does that. Tweeks the vocal line and adds his own little twist to it. But again, he
didn't write the songs so he isn't really as talented as the other guy. the last guy is a kille drummer, he adds all kinds of crazy stuff
and makes his part cool but again he doesn't write the song so he sucks too... A band is basically a group of people that work together and see
eachothers strengths and tries to make the best of it.... So maybe we should start seeing britney as part of a band... a band who's members we
don't get to see cuz thats really what is happening.
Oh and by the way... Sweet pretty much equals The Livid
at least in my point of view...
thanks for reading....
cb
[Edited on 7-11-03 by Xlivid]
Christopher Bowes
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Reivax
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 23:34
Wow...nicely put. I would love to give my thoughts on that, but that will have to wait another day so I can think about it.
RobH
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posted on 2003-11-7 at 23:34
Like it or not, entertainment is very closely tied in with art, as xlivid very correctly points out. Entertainment is one of the purposes of art. By
that definition you could say that anyone who entertains you is an artist.
I suppose the definition of art we have been using frequently in this thread pertains more to our percieved depth of the art. In my paradoxal
definition of art, I would say that art is anything about which someone would say:
"That's not art."
If it causes such a controversy it probably is art. You have to be careful when declaring certain forms of art inferior to others, because then you
can become just as close minded as the people who you look down upon, all the while being no better, only different. I guess what this thread was
about to me, was just being open minded about music, although that's not what I wrote, per se. If you're writing a song, try something
new, or if you hear something new, give it a chance.
[Edited on 7-11-03 by RobH]
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Jeff K
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posted on 2003-11-8 at 00:05
One quick thing about song writing. Sometimes verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus, chorus is simply the best way to arrange a song depending
on the nature of the tune. There's a reason why that formula is used over and over again.
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posted on 2003-11-8 at 00:29
I truely believe that one can not understand music unless they have in somehow way shape or form studied it @ some point in time! Music is an art form
and that is why i do not believe "entertainers" like Britney Spears, Hilary Duff, Avril Lavigne ect. are true artists! Thus said i believe
the term atrist is highly over used, and is given to ne joe dick sally or harry entering the entertainment industry!
This could be my opinion because "real" music has been a large part of my life since ... well i was born, ( church, school, bari, guitar,
band, jazz band, curbside, ect.) i mean my first words were one love, shortly followed be jamm'n *i have Mr. Bob Marley to thank 4 that*
Or it could just be the fact i am a stuck up bitch!!
But either way, as I see it the music industry is go'n down hill and it won't be long b4 they create a reality show based on which
homeless person can become the next Canadian Idol! The question is will the homeless dude/dudette be considered an artist??
LOL i realllllllyyyy like this topic, and i luv all ur opinions up there, Reivan, RobH, Xlivid, Sin Ogaris, lil'lady and Po
You all get a gold star! 2 Thumbs up!
{Hocus Pocus i'm losing focus - you knock me off of my feet with your kiss - Ain't got no reason to compromise when i'm with u
i'm in paradise } Rides Again ... rides ... again???
tremendous
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posted on 2003-11-8 at 01:15
quotation:Originally posted by RobH
Does anybody here look for something in the music they listen to besides the obvious radio appeal?
I often listen out for things which make me think, whether it's some insane playing technique or else a complex rhythm or structure.
That's what draws me to Mudvayne so much - a lot of the songs make next to no sense until you've thought about it and worked out how they
work. I guess the main Mudvayne thing I'm talking about is their really weird time signature constructions which sound amazing once you're
used to them - and the really clever thing is that if you think about it you can understand how it works after just a few listens. But you have to
think.
This thread gets a trophy.
Pure_Ibanez_Sound
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posted on 2003-11-8 at 02:18
When you look at how shyte some forums of music i.e rap and pop have turned out to be, it really makes you think. It makes you think about who these
people are and what ideas goes on in their heads to produce this shit.
What has this world come to? I sometimes think to myself. When four chord bands and making millions off of hopeless teenage girls and boys, with no
idea on what real music is.
When you see the guys from Good Charolette who have little or no talent what so ever, have more bling that I could ever imagine.. It's quite
depressing.
For most of my day's, you can probably find me exploring this art form through various ways. That's what's so great about music.
Whether you sing, dance, beat on a stick or play the spoons, you have an amazing talent for what ever you do.
When I listen to music, I can almost get lost in the singer's voice or finding myself amazed at how fast some can play certain solo's. Or,
what these musicians go through to produce shat that we love to listen too.
I've never taken the time to figure out what goes into making a true single. Forget a whole album, but for some to imagine how much hard work
and effort it takes to please hundreds.. That effort seems far away, and unimaginable.
But just to clear RobH's topic up a bit,
Music is not an art.. It's a way of life.
[Edited on 8-11-03 by Pure_Ibanez_Sound]
one last show.
mi
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posted on 2003-11-8 at 02:33
quotation:Originally posted by Pure_Ibanez_Sound
Music is not an art.. It's a way of life.
Thats the truth! Nicely done, couldn't have put it better myself.
the act of sacraficing bitter memories
i cant bring myself to fogive you, i cant force myself to fogive you, i cant bring myself to forgive you
SideO_JR
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posted on 2003-11-8 at 07:01
wow i feel like i'm a feeble minded child in a discussion of professors of music...you all make amazing points...i wihsh i could contribute but
you have all shown me how little ireally know....
SideO_JR
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posted on 2003-11-8 at 07:55
ok forget that last post I now have something to put into this conversation. this is al my opinion so please....i don't mean to disprove
anyone
First of all i would like to say this is an amazing post...anything that can keep me up in bed and then force me to get my ass up and turn on my
computer just so i can ramble on must be good.(and i am appoligizing in advance it none of this makes any sense but it has been all i have been able
to think about the last couple of hours and i need to get it out of my head)
OK....my deffinition of an art(which i have completely made up on my own i have no idea if anyone else feels this way) is anything that you can
improve it......excelle(sp) at. That means that almost everything would be considered an art( from sports to film to speech to ...i donno even sex i
guess) Everyone has different forms of art that mean more to them then the others. for me sports is definatly the most important thing that i
do....and close behind it is deffinatly music. so because everyone thinks others(arts) are more important you cannot say that what they like is not
an art. Some people think that to truly preform an art such as a song you must be the one that created it. it is also a matter of opinion....just
because you don't like a certain band because they are created to be No.1 on the lists doesn't mean they have no talent, because they
obviously do and they prove that by reaching number one. anyone who does not consider music as an art does not truly feel music.
i'd also like to mention that alot of arts combine. i realize ths is of topic but it is also another thing running thro my mind. music plays
a part in the arts of film producing, sports, plays, dances, even alot of paintings are inspired by music....it would be hard ot find another art that
does not in some way conect with music.
